Curse

Anon-e-mouse · Jan 05, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berek

Ask yourself this: Should completely unexperienced players be able to destroy Elite Areas in Hard Mode? The answer is no. You're free to disagree, but you'll be wrong.

And so say all Elitist types. Oh my the numpties want to do Elite Area's.. and they want to use PvE skills.. sacrilege. Elitist types are all for cornering the 'elite' areas for themselves and themselves only.. if your a numpty who's never even set foot in an 'Elite' area... you are COMPLETE SH*T OUT OF LUCK.

That is not the inclusive game that Guild Wars was meant to be, and you should be ashamed that you want to perpetuate the elitist crowd. It's not a mindset that I want ANY part of.

HawkofStorms · Jan 05, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Anon's perception is a common problem with GW's population.

People get to confused about the difference between being a good player and an elitest. Being an elitest means I LOL at "noobs" and don't help anybody or need/want anybody elses help.

Good players are, legitmately, better at the game in thier understanding of game mechanics. Just because they are better or claim to be better (because they are) people precieve this as "elitest."

An elitest doesn't want other people to be better then him, because he needs somebody to ego stroke.
A good player WANTS bad players to become good players. They want more competition in PvP and to make finding teamates easier in PvE. Bad players become good players by using non-gimmick builds and by learning about game mechanics, which is hindered by the current meta that discourages both.

The fact is, a.net has cattered too much to this precieved "elitism" by destroying the difference between a good and bad player. Ie, even a bad player could use Ursan just as well as a good player.

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

And so say all Elitist types. Oh my the numpties want to do Elite Area's.. and they want to use PvE skills.. sacrilege. Elitist types are all for cornering the 'elite' areas for themselves and themselves only.. if your a numpty who's never even set foot in an 'Elite' area... you are COMPLETE SH*T OUT OF LUCK.

That is not the inclusive game that Guild Wars was meant to be, and you should be ashamed that you want to perpetuate the elitist crowd. It's not a mindset that I want ANY part of.

If you never set a foot in an Elite Area, you are baed.

They don't call it Elite Area just for the lulz. It is harder than for the Average Joe Shmoe.

HawkofStorms has nailed the difference between someone good and an elitist.

Good player - wants challenge and people to get skill.
Elitist - cares only about his stack of ectoes.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Anon's perception is a common problem with GW's population.

People get to confused about the difference between being a good player and an elitest. Being an elitest means I LOL at "noobs" and don't help anybody or anybody elses help.

Good players are, legitmately, better at the game in thier understanding of game mechanics. Just because they are better or claim to be better (because they are) people precieve this as "elitest."

An elitest doesn't want other people to be better then him, because he needs somebody to ego stroke.
A good player WANTS bad players to become good players. They want more competition in PvP and to make finding teamates easier in PvE. Bad players become good players by using non-gimmick builds and by learning about game mechanics, which is hindered by the current meta that discourages both.

The fact is, a.net has cattered too much to this precieved "elitism" by destroying the difference between a good and bad player. Ie, even a bad player could use Ursan just as well as a good player.

None of the purposed nerfs will change anything of that. Actually of the ideas purposed are outright ridiculous and smell of preventing people from finishing stuff, unless they are in a guild that will always enable 8 or 12 player parties.

Removing all non-interactive skills sound good to increase skill required until someone throw 500+ damage at you with a single skill. You can counter that but gets old soon.

And what level of skill do you purpose to be required? Is it require to do aurora glades in HM, without consumable, with a hero monk, 2 eles heroes, 1 monk hench and 1 ele hench and without no PvE skills and no bug exploits enough? Or you need to do that while naked?

HawkofStorms · Jan 05, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

None of the purposed nerfs will change anything of that. Actually of the ideas purposed are outright ridiculous and smell of preventing people from finishing stuff, unless they are in a guild that will always enable 8 or 12 player parties.

Removing all non-interactive skills sound good to increase skill required until someone throw 500+ damage at you with a single skill. You can counter that but gets old soon.

And what level of skill do you purpose to be required? Is it require to do aurora glades in HM, without consumable, with a hero monk, 2 eles heroes, 1 monk hench and 1 ele hench and without no PvE skills and no bug exploits enough? Or you need to do that while naked?

Just because these proposed nerfs won't be a silver bullet and fix all the problems doesn't mean a.net shouldn't at least try.

And really, there are plenty of ways to deal with +500 damage skills used against you by monsters, without resorting to gimmicky stuff. Most obviously, is proper pulling and aggro mechanics so you don't get overwhelmed. Aggro doesn't matter anymore thanks to SF.

The other, is prot spirit. A monk that runs something besides all healing/"make red bars go up" can easily keep a party alive.

The other is disruption. Interupts and shutdowns and hexes are overlooked too often.

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

So you see, you are wrong.

Congratulations , u cut and copied a post and completly misunderstood the sense , u r impressively WRONG . Good FAIL dude . When i said "every prof can use it" i meant that every prof that chances sec prof to that and uses skills of that second prof can use it and have SOME effect. For example , critical bow sin can use triple shot (allegiance skill) and have good effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yes. That is true. Everything else is a fail.

So are you
[/QUOTE]

Keira Nightgale · Jan 05, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Just because these proposed nerfs won't be a silver bullet and fix all the problems doesn't mean a.net shouldn't at least try.

And really, there are plenty of ways to deal with +500 damage skills used against you by monsters, without resorting to gimmicky stuff. Most obviously, is proper pulling and aggro mechanics so you don't get overwhelmed. Aggro doesn't matter anymore thanks to SF.

The other, is prot spirit. A monk that runs something besides all healing/"make red bars go up" can easily keep a party alive.

The other is disruption. Interupts and shutdowns and hexes are overlooked too often.

The problem here is the mentality behind, when a player says Cryway is for noobs he automatically poses his judgement as an absolute benchmark, for another player 5 physicals could be a gimmick build as much as cryway is. In order to fuel his arguments based on his own discomfort about the ingame now shitted upon achievements he made, the subject in question will bring up any sort of excuses from the ruined economy to the "omfg apocalypse is coming" issue. In general pve doesn't need to be balanced (only case it needs it is when mobs can 1 shoot players and there is absolutely no way to take down), only thing that would need a fix is shadow form, but not for the skill itself more for the ill combo it creates with an ele secondary.
I'm all up for a more challenging pve but only when the "fixes" promoted have a decent ratio behind them, not when the reason of their proposal is the prickysh nature of the promoter (not talking about OP here, but many posters in this thread have that stuck up attitude) on top of that; a "challenge" is not offered by reducing players skill efficiency but rather from adding new content especially not based on the typical "let's give monsters insane hp and damage bonuses and enjoy the new ways players will find to kill them" because in this case there would be no difference between elite areas.
Also I'd like to point out how pve hasn't gotten massively easier from what it was. In beta you had eles one shooting everything, in prophecies you had no soul reaping nerf and no minion cap, in faction you had stacking spirits with godly armor/health and almost permanent defensive partywide buffs and let's not forget splinter weapon, when nf came out you had insanely overpowered skills, remember the paragons of the beginning?
I never do cryway (I doubt my ritu could manage it wel) I almost always run balanced or discordway but I see no point in reducing someone else fun, if they want to play that way let them, they won't influence mine or yours gaming experience.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Just because these proposed nerfs won't be a silver bullet and fix all the problems doesn't mean a.net shouldn't at least try.

And really, there are plenty of ways to deal with +500 damage skills used against you by monsters, without resorting to gimmicky stuff. Most obviously, is proper pulling and aggro mechanics so you don't get overwhelmed. Aggro doesn't matter anymore thanks to SF.

The other, is prot spirit. A monk that runs something besides all healing/"make red bars go up" can easily keep a party alive.

The other is disruption. Interupts and shutdowns and hexes are overlooked too often.

This is also a form of elitism. Just because I don't agree with the changes, you think you will have to explain me how to play.

If arkantos had purposed to reduce the armor from SY! from 100 to 40 or whatever other number, even given it a recharge would be no problem.

If arkantos had stayed away from discordway, which isn't overpowered compared to balanced human party builds, wall would be fine.

I only used a tank once. To do UW cause I didn't have any human monk and that stupid reaper like to die to ms.

If people like to talk about overpowered, used by player skills, they also need to talk about absurd monster skills and environment effects (they are just stupid, no skill at all. U can reduce ur skill bar to 4 or 5 skills to gimp urself in that way if u want to), stupid henchies builds and idiot hero AI (especially melee).

Otherwise it all sums up to prevent people from doing all the game content unless they are in a guild full of experienced people.

[DE] · Jan 05, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

The problem here is the mentality behind, when a player says Cryway is for noobs he automatically poses his judgement as an absolute benchmark, for another player 5 physicals could be a gimmick build as much as cryway is.

Just a quick thought from me. Let's compare cryway with a 5 physical build (with SY!). If you take away, or nerf, cry of pain, the whole cryway build is dead - one skill was the whole basis of the build, and without it you lack any sort of good damage or spiking potential. Now, let's take away SY! from the physical build; you modify the monk bar and probably replace the paragon with a second monk and the build can still take on HM areas with ease.

I'm not saying that the 5 physical build isn't imba, because it certainly is; but it can not be put along cryway and be called a gimmick.

MirkoTeran · Jan 05, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If people like to talk about overpowered, used by player skills, they also need to talk about absurd monster skills and environment effects (they are just stupid, no skill at all.)

We all know the GW AI is dumb and the lack of randomization in PvE doesn't help either. But the sad truth is there is very little chance that area is getting any improvement ever. I really hope GW2 does this a bit better. Until then, nerfing overpowered aspects across the board is the only viable option.

Keira Nightgale · Jan 05, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Just a quick thought from me. Let's compare cryway with a 5 physical build (with SY!). If you take away, or nerf, cry of pain, the whole cryway build is dead - one skill was the whole basis of the build, and without it you lack any sort of good damage or spiking potential. Now, let's take away SY! from the physical build; you modify the monk bar and probably replace the paragon with a second monk and the build can still take on HM areas with ease.

I'm not saying that the 5 physical build isn't imba, because it certainly is; but it can not be put along cryway and be called a gimmick.

Nope, you take out SY from the 5 physical and the whole build will collapse especially in the first room of Urgoz. Also in the 4 physical variant you'll have to remove the Overpowered pve skills, since by OP logic Eternal aura/aura of holy might/TnTf/ critical agility are overpowered as well, let's not talk about Great dwarf weapon. Hey don't forget Ray of Judgement, it's so "bugged" that mobs don't scatter

, things like this (mentioning only 1-2 skills used by pugs, and forgetting things that work as well but are run by a minority of players) label this as a QQ/elitist thread.

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

And so say all Elitist types.

If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure.

Quote:

Nope, you take out SY from the 5 physical and the whole build will collapse especially in the first room of Urgoz. Also in the 4 physical variant you'll have to remove the Overpowered pve skills, since by OP logic Eternal aura/aura of holy might/TnTf/ critical agility are overpowered as well, let's not talk about Great dwarf weapon. Hey don't forget Ray of Judgement, it's so "bugged" that mobs don't scatter , things like this (mentioning only 1-2 skills used by pugs, and forgetting things that work as well but are run by a minority of players) label this as a QQ/elitist thread.

With 4 monks, build modifications and some skill, no, it won't.

Those skills are powerful, yes. But please tell me where I said they were overpowered. Don't worry, I'll wait. Ray of judgment is bugged, and should be fixed. That's just common sense, though.

You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE.

kostolomac · Jan 05, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Awesome post

This post is awesome , best post on this page.

A bit on topic , these nerfs aren't proposed to increase challenge, but balance out the classes because these skills are extremely powerful.
Nerfing skills won't provide any real challenge , only new content can do that.
Also removing the retarted enviromental effects in elite areas and changing the builds of the monsters and their monster skills a bit would a step in the right direction.

[DE] · Jan 05, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Nope, you take out SY from the 5 physical and the whole build will collapse especially in the first room of Urgoz. Also in the 4 physical variant you'll have to remove the Overpowered pve skills, since by OP logic Eternal aura/aura of holy might/TnTf/ critical agility are overpowered as well, let's not talk about Great dwarf weapon. Hey don't forget Ray of Judgement, it's so "bugged" that mobs don't scatter

, things like this (mentioning only 1-2 skills used by pugs, and forgetting things that work as well but are run by a minority of players) label this as a QQ/elitist thread.

Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you their, especially on the basis of how much I've played the build. Taking out PvE only skills you mentioned doesn't really affect the Urgoz build at all. Running two Earthshaker warriors is more than enough knockdown to allow enough shutdown to keep damage at a minimum. Proper aggro and good prots along with people following targets will lead to success in Urgoz. As far as eternal aura goes, the only time dervishes are really ran are in FoW and that's only for Dwayna - having downtime or simply replacing the dervs would keep the builds effectiveness up. Ray of Judgement? In the physical build? Never used, never will.

But we're getting off-topic here. I would love to see the OP's balances go through. Promoting skillful play in PvE is something I can only dream of.

Keira Nightgale · Jan 05, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If having common sense means you're an elitist, sure.

Those skills are powerful, yes. But please tell me where I said they were overpowered. Don't worry, I'll wait. Ray of judgment is bugged, and should be fixed. That's just common sense, though.

You also need to learn what QQ is, and what an elitist is. I'm not elitist, I just happen to be in the minority of players that give a shit about balance in PvE.

You need to learn to read, because in my previous post I said that I didn't believe you were an elitist, but seeing how you took it personal, now I can't help but think that deep inside you know you're one.
You didn't call them Overpowered, ( please point out where I said you called them overpowered) but by your logic they are.
On the other hand, cry of pain on a single char isn't that powerful, when in party it becomes an issue, same with aura of holy might (alone it's not overpowered) but when you have 4 wars spamming scythe attacks with it, it becomes an issue, again you forgot or didn't want to mention the whole thing. Again balance in pve means nothing, mobs will never complain about that and as long as things aren't handed freely I see no point in nerfing things, I'd be worried a little if you could get a voltaic in 2 minutes but not when you still need countless runs each lasting 15 minutes at least to get one.

QQ is sometimes used on the Internet as an abbreviation for crying; it is supposedly visually similar to two big eyes with tears at the bottom. For further reading, see emoticon (Urban dictionary).

This thread has all the qualities of the standard complain/whine thread, fits the QQ requirements perfectly. By the way I'd like to point out next update is tomorrow, by then we will see if ROJ is really bugged or just another OP skill, I hope you will add that on the list with all the ones I previously mentioned (add to that "By Ural's hammer" as well, oh and sliver armor, anyone complaining about SF when sliver is the skill that should be killed in order to destroy SF farming)

Lhim · Jan 05, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

A bit on topic , these nerfs aren't proposed to increase challenge, but balance out the classes because these skills are extremely powerful.
Nerfing skills won't provide any real challenge , only new content can do that.
Also removing the retarted enviromental effects in elite areas and changing the builds of the monsters and their monster skills a bit would a step in the right direction.

I agree with you partly, however I do believe that it would make it more challenging because it would indeed balance out the different classes like you say. That would promote class diversity and the need for a better cooperation ( which some think is enough challenge for PUGs

).
I'd personally like to see new content added as well and an unpredictability for monster skillbars, but I don't think that's realistic so late in the game. Toning down some skills would be easier I think. However it shouldn't be just toning down these skills in my opinion, but also improving underused skills and elites, like they have been doing, to promote builddiversity.

[Morkai] · Jan 05, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

And so say all Elitist types. Oh my the numpties want to do Elite Area's.. and they want to use PvE skills.. sacrilege. Elitist types are all for cornering the 'elite' areas for themselves and themselves only.. if your a numpty who's never even set foot in an 'Elite' area... you are COMPLETE SH*T OUT OF LUCK.

That is not the inclusive game that Guild Wars was meant to be, and you should be ashamed that you want to perpetuate the elitist crowd. It's not a mindset that I want ANY part of.

Wait, so Elite areas are supposed to be completed by people with a lack of skill? Thus rendering them just "areas"?

Please re-think your argument, and when you provide a valid defense, I will warrant it with one of my own.

HawkofStorms · Jan 05, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

For god sakes. Stop calling people who disagree with you either "elitests" or "trolls."

People can and do have legitamate disagreements over OPINIONS without being terrible human beings.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berek

Wait, so Elite areas are supposed to be completed by people with a lack of skill? Thus rendering them just "areas"?

Considering I see DoA empty (spent like 2 weeks in there last december with my girl getting gems for a few torment weapons) and the Deep and Urgoz are hardly better, and the few people that are there call me crazy and leave when they see we are using 6 heroes, I would say they aren't rendering those elite areas into just areas.

But maybe my girl, myself and my heroes bother u...

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

For god sakes. Stop calling people who disagree with you either "elitests" or "trolls."

People can and do have legitamate disagreements over OPINIONS without being terrible human beings.

Or players